The Dismantling the Doctrine of Discovery Podcast

Episode 38: Interview with Allen Buck: Not Giving Up on One Another

May 2nd, 2025  |  Season 3  |  43 mins 16 secs

In this episode, Sarah and Sheri interview Allen Buck about his work within the United Methodist Church. Allen discusses the necessity of truth telling in building trust and relationships, and its importance in Repair work within the Church.

Dr. William Allen Buck is a Cherokee (CNO) Native American Ordained Elder, currently serving at Great Spirit, the only United Methodist Native American Church in the Oregon Idaho Annual Conference of the United Methodist Church. He is also the Director of the Circle of Indigenous Ministries for the United Methodist Church. Social justice, especially advocating for the rights and protection of Indigenous peoples’ spaces, traditions, cultures, and wisdom, is at the heart of his work. He is also passionate about addressing issues surrounding the environment, civil rights, education, intergenerational trauma, and poverty. His vision is to help create a beloved community where all people are embraced and uplifted.

Show notes:
Circle of Indigenous Ministries for the United Methodist Church:
https://greaternw.org/circle/

About Father Wilbur (this is the colonized version of the story)
https://www.oregonencyclopedia.org/articles/wilbur_james_h_1811_1887_/

Sarah’s and my book: So That We and Our Children May Live: Following Jesus in Confronting the Climate Crisis

Sarah’s and my Substack: So That We and Our Children May Live

You can follow the Coalition to Dismantle the Doctrine of Discovery on Instagram (@coalitiontodismantle) and Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/dismantlediscovery)

Episode 37: Interview with Frances Loberg and Tracy Howe: Prayer as Presence

April 17th, 2025  |  Season 3  |  32 mins 11 secs

Learn about the Chí’chil Biłdagoteel Oak Flat Accompaniment (COFA) team from two current volunteers, Fran Loberg and Tracy Howe. Learn about COFA’s role at Oak Flat, a sacred site that is under threat from a copper mining company, and what led Fran and Tracy to join in the work of protecting sacred land.

Frances Loberg lives in the ancestral land of the Kalapuya Indians, now known as Salem, OR. She has three grown children, is a semi-retired lactation nurse, and has been involved in various movements for peace and justice since her early 20’s. In July of 2024 she attended a training to be a member of the COFA team and then accompanied the Apache Stronghold on their six-week prayer journey across the country, visiting other tribes and churches to pray and build unity as they took their case to the Supreme Court on Sept. 11, 2024.

Rev. Tracy Howe (she/they/womxn) is a songwriter, author, theologian, and activist and uses their creative expression in cultural organizing toward a world of beauty, care and belonging.They are mixed Pinay (Filipino) and European settler living on Tohono O’odham and Pascua Yaqui land in what is now called Tucson, AZ. She is the founder of Restoration Village Arts, a 501c3, and pursuing a Ph.D. in Applied Intercultural Arts Research at the University of Arizona where she is a practice-led scholar exploring spirituality in 21st century US-based social movements and the relationship between US settler colonialism and present-day fascism.

Resources:
Apache Stronghold website: apache-stronghold.com/
Coalition to Dismantle the Doctrine of Discovery Study Guide and Bible Reflection Guide
Learn more about Eloheh Indigenous Center for Earth Justice
Check out our Coalition Calendar to register for an upcoming orientation
Listen to this previous podcast interview with Dwight Metzger about Oak Flat and Mt. Graham (sacred sister site)

If you’re interested in COFA (Chí’chil Biłdagoteel Oak Flat Accompaniment) or getting involved in Mt. Graham you can email our Oak Flat organizer molly block ([email protected])

Sarah’s and my book: So That We and Our Children May Live: Following Jesus in Confronting the Climate Crisis

Sarah’s and my Substack: So That We and Our Children May Live

You can follow the Coalition to Dismantle the Doctrine of Discovery on Instagram (@coalitiontodismantle) and Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/dismantlediscovery)

Episode 36: Episode 1 – Interview with Leora Tadgerson: Healing Native Hearts

March 24th, 2025  |  Season 3  |  41 mins 49 secs

Sarah has been working with Leora Tadgerson for months on a national Episcopal committee working to tell the truth and repair the harms of church-led boarding schools. In this episode, we talk with Leora about her work as chair of the MW062 Executive Council Committee for Indigenous Boarding Schools and Advocacy.

Leora is a proud dual citizen of Gnoozhikaaning, Bay Mills and Wiikwemkong First Nations. She serves as Director of Reparations and Justice with the Episcopal Diocese of Northern Michigan. Leora’s role focuses on truth-telling, racial equity through restorative justice, reconciliation research from the Native American boarding school era, and place-based community work and bridge building as a tribal liaison. Her research involves the Michigan-based Indian boarding school experience and the Episcopal-run schools. Through Leora’s research, she hopes to aid in the healing of Native hearts. In her spare time, she can be found with her partner, Tye and four boys, Quinn, Shiloh, Evan and Jack.

Sarah’s and my book: So That We and Our Children May Live: Following Jesus in Confronting the Climate Crisis

Sarah’s and my Substack: So That We and Our Children May Live

You can follow the Coalition to Dismantle the Doctrine of Discovery on Instagram (@coalitiontodismantle) and Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/dismantlediscovery)

Episode 35: Episode 13 - Interview with Meghan Reha: Investment Justice

September 5th, 2024  |  Season 3  |  50 mins 1 sec

Meghan is a socially-motivated millennial of European ancestry living in the Sugar Creek watershed — the unjustly ceded prairies and woodlands of many indigenous nations including Illini, Peoria, Miyyamia and Kiikapoi peoples, now known as Bloomington, Illinois. She works as a global renewable energy expert, helping wind farms get built and financed for more than a decade. She is a devoted cat owner, old house fixer, book reader, and the chair of the Coalition’s Investment Justice Working Group.

In this conversation, we talk about: What does it mean to be prophetic and transformational with our investments? How do we leverage the power of investments on behalf of Indigenous People who are fighting for sovereignty and self-determination against the systems that have oppressive consequences for all of us?

Sarah and Sheri wrote a book together! Find out more about So We and Our Children May Live: Following Jesus in Confronting the Climate Crisis here. We are also publishing a Substack with the same title based on the theme found in our book — ecological justice, decolonization, faith, and where we find hope for our future. We’re excited about this Substack because it’s a more personal, unfiltered space in which we can share our thoughts and writings. Please contact Sheri at [email protected] if you can’t afford the price and would like a complimentary subscription.

You can follow the Coalition to Dismantle the Doctrine of Discovery on Instagram (@coalitiontodismantle) and Facebook.

Episode 34: Interview with Arleth Martinez and Manny Villanueva

July 19th, 2024  |  Season 3  |  46 mins 31 secs

Arleth Martinez and Manny Villanueva are student leaders at Goshen College who have been instrumental in organizing the college and surrounding community to support Apache Stronghold in their attempt to protect their sacred lands at Oak Flat. In this episode, Arleth and Manny talk about how they got involved with the work to dismantle the Doctrine of Discovery, how that connects with their faith, and why they are passionate about organizing.

Sarah and Sheri wrote a book together! Find out more about So We and Our Children May Live: Following Jesus in Confronting the Climate Crisis here. We are also publishing a Substack with the same title based on the theme found in our book — ecological justice, decolonization, faith, and where we find hope for our future. We’re excited about this Substack because it’s a more personal, unfiltered space in which we can share our thoughts and writings. Please contact Sheri at [email protected] if you can’t afford the price and would like a complimentary subscription.

You can follow the Coalition to Dismantle the Doctrine of Discovery on Instagram (@coalitiontodismantle) and Facebook.

Episode 33: Interview with Doe Hoyer and John Stoesz, Part 2

June 28th, 2024  |  Season 3  |  31 mins 13 secs

We continue the conversation with Doe Hoyer and John Stoesz begun in our last episode.

Please consider signing the "I Support the Sacred" petition to show your support for Apache Stronghold's legal case to protect Oak Flat. Resolution Copper, a subsidiary of British and Australian mining giants Rio Tinto and BHP, proposes to completely destroy this sacred site and contaminate the surrounding land, water and air. Preserving the religious liberty of Apache peoples is essential to preserving our own. We must all join together to protect sacred land from the forces of destruction.

Sarah and Sheri wrote a book together! Find out more about So We and Our Children May Live: Following Jesus in Confronting the Climate Crisis here. We are also publishing a Substack with the same title based on the theme found in our book — ecological justice, decolonization, faith, and where we find hope for our future. We’re excited about this Substack because it’s a more personal, unfiltered space in which we can share our thoughts and writings. Please contact Sheri at [email protected] if you can’t afford the price and would like a complimentary subscription.

You can follow the Coalition to Dismantle the Doctrine of Discovery on Instagram (@coalitiontodismantle) and Facebook.

Episode 32: Interview with Doe Hoyer and John Stoesz, Part 1

June 14th, 2024  |  Season 3  |  30 mins 59 secs

On our podcast today are Doe Hoyer and John Stoesz, two amazing organizers based in Minnesota who work with the Coalition. We can all learn so much from them about making justice happen in the real world, going beyond statements to actions – including returning land to Indigenous people, forming “repair communities” made up of (mostly) white settlers and participating in legislative campaigns. Through their attitudes and actions, they demonstrate what it means to show up in a good way in solidarity with Indigenous People.

What Does Justice Look Like: The Struggle for Liberation in Dakota Homeland by Waziyatawin
Makoce Ikikcupi (Land Recovery)

Please consider signing the "I Support the Sacred" petition to show your support for Apache Stronghold's legal case to protect Oak Flat. Resolution Copper, a subsidiary of British and Australian mining giants Rio Tinto and BHP, proposes to completely destroy this sacred site and contaminate the surrounding land, water and air. Preserving the religious liberty of Apache peoples is essential to preserving our own. We must all join together to protect sacred land from the forces of destruction.

Sarah and Sheri wrote a book together! Find out more about So We and Our Children May Live: Following Jesus in Confronting the Climate Crisis here. We are also publishing a Substack with the same title based on the theme found in our book — ecological justice, decolonization, faith, and where we find hope for our future. We’re excited about this Substack because it’s a more personal, unfiltered space in which we can share our thoughts and writings. Please contact Sheri at [email protected] if you can’t afford the price and would like a complimentary subscription.

You can follow the Coalition to Dismantle the Doctrine of Discovery on Instagram (@coalitiontodismantle) and Facebook.

Episode 31: Ask an Indian: Part 2

May 7th, 2024  |  Season 3  |  48 mins 7 secs

Sarah and guest “answerers” Mark Charles and Phil Fox continue the conversation from the last episode. Questions include:

Settlers are often told to seek relationship with local Native people. But what if Native folks don’t seem to want this? What does it really mean to build right relationship with Native people?
I have grown up and lived most of my life with an understanding of human progress, that each successive generation lived better than the generation prior. Our medical treatments improve; our scientific knowledge advances; our technology gets better and better. For a variety of reasons, I am now questioning this view. Please comment on the idea of human progress. In particular, please share your thoughts on the idea of human progress in the area of morality. Dr. King famously said “The arc of the moral universe is long, but leans towards justice.“ But as I learn more about Indigenous societies, I am no longer confident that our modern society is more just than certain societies many centuries ago.
Mark also returns to the first question asked in our last podcast episode: How can you practice Christianity and your own Indigenous spirituality at the same time? Can you be true to yourself and your Indigenous identity and be a Christian at the same time?

Please consider signing the "I Support the Sacred" petition to show your support for Apache Stronghold's legal case to protect Oak Flat. Resolution Copper, a subsidiary of British and Australian mining giants Rio Tinto and BHP, proposes to completely destroy this sacred site and contaminate the surrounding land, water and air. Preserving the religious liberty of Apache peoples is essential to preserving our own. We must all join together to protect sacred land from the forces of destruction.

Sarah and Sheri wrote a book together! Find out more about So We and Our Children May Live: Following Jesus in Confronting the Climate Crisis here. We are also publishing a Substack with the same title based on the theme found in our book — ecological justice, decolonization, faith, and where we find hope for our future. We’re excited about this Substack because it’s a more personal, unfiltered space in which we can share our thoughts and writings. Please contact Sheri at [email protected] if you can’t afford the price and would like a complimentary subscription.

You can follow the Coalition to Dismantle the Doctrine of Discovery on Instagram (@coalitiontodismantle) and Facebook.

Episode 30: Ask an Indian Part 1

April 26th, 2024  |  Season 3  |  45 mins 4 secs

In this recurring episode, Sarah answers questions from listeners. This time, she is joined by Native friends Mark Charles and Phil Fox. Questions include:
How can you practice Christianity and your own Indigenous spirituality at the same time? Can you be true to yourself and your Indigenous identity and be a Christian at the same time?
The Bible is pretty clear that men shouldn’t have long hair. What do you think about having long hair? (This was actually a topic at the church in which Sarah grew up.)
As a member of a church that is trying to be more than superficial about acknowledging that we occupy land that was illegitimately taken from natives, how can we respond in an honest way?

We want your questions, especially those you might feel too embarrassed to ask “out loud.” Please submit any questions to Sheri at [email protected]. You can even do so anonymously, if you wish.
Please consider signing the "I Support the Sacred" petition to show your support for Apache Stronghold's legal case to protect Oak Flat. Resolution Copper, a subsidiary of British and Australian mining giants Rio Tinto and BHP, proposes to completely destroy this sacred site and contaminate the surrounding land, water and air. Preserving the religious liberty of Apache peoples is essential to preserving our own. We must all join together to protect sacred land from the forces of destruction.

Sarah and Sheri wrote a book together! Find out more about So We and Our Children May Live: Following Jesus in Confronting the Climate Crisis here. We are also publishing a Substack with the same title based on the theme found in our book — ecological justice, decolonization, faith, and where we find hope for our future. We’re excited about this Substack because it’s a more personal, unfiltered space in which we can share our thoughts and writings. Please contact Sheri at [email protected] if you can’t afford the price and would like a complimentary subscription.

You can follow the Coalition to Dismantle the Doctrine of Discovery on Instagram (@coalitiontodismantle) and Facebook.

Episode 29: Interview with Patrick Bell

March 19th, 2024  |  Season 3  |  1 hr 1 min

In this episode, we talk to Patrick Bell, Bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Eastern Oregon. His Diocese, which is a member of the Coalition’s Repair Network, has gone above and beyond in repudiating the Doctrine of Discovery. They started, first, with land rematriartion and then later came up with a repudiation statement. Patrick talks about how this “action-first” repudiation happened, what motivates him in this work, and why guilt isn’t an effective motivator for white people. Patrick was also willing to share vulnerably about being the father of Indigenous children in this interview – which opened up a space for all three of us to share intimately. In the end, we know only by changing systems of oppression may we create the conditions for all children to thrive.

The lament used at the Episcopal Diocese’s meeting can be found here.

Please consider signing the "I Support the Sacred" petition to show your support for Apache Stronghold's legal case to protect Oak Flat. Resolution Copper, a subsidiary of British and Australian mining giants Rio Tinto and BHP, proposes to completely destroy this sacred site and contaminate the surrounding land, water and air. Preserving the religious liberty of Apache peoples is essential to preserving our own. We must all join together to protect sacred land from the forces of destruction.

Sarah and Sheri wrote a book together! Find out more about So We and Our Children May Live: Following Jesus in Confronting the Climate Crisis here. We are also publishing a Substack with the same title based on the theme found in our book — ecological justice, decolonization, faith, and where we find hope for our future. We’re excited about this Substack because it’s a more personal, unfiltered space in which we can share our thoughts and writings.

You can follow the Coalition to Dismantle the Doctrine of Discovery on Instagram (@coalitiontodismantle) and Facebook.

Episode 28: Interview with Basil Brave Heart and Hilary Giovale

January 19th, 2024  |  Season 3  |  1 hr 10 mins

In this episode, we talk to Basil Brave Heart and Hilary Giovale. This was an amazing conversation about forgiveness – forgiving our oppressors, how true healing and repair happen given the reality of historical harms, how white settlers need to forgive themselves as part of the work of reparation. Basil also shares deeply from his tradition in ways that Sarah and Sheri found very moving.

Basil Brave Heart is an Oglala Lakota Elder who lives in Pine Ridge, South Dakota. He is a Catholic boarding school survivor, retired school administrator, addiction counselor, and Korean War combat veteran who served as a paratrooper in the 1950s. As a young child in the 1930s, Basil’s Grandma Lucy told him about the 1890 Wounded Knee massacre. She counseled him to forgive the soldiers who perpetrated the massacre. A dream of his Grandma later guided Basil to change the name of a peak in the Black Hills. In 2016, it was renamed “Black Elk Peak” at the federal level. Basil studies how quantum physics corroborates the wisdom woven throughout the Lakota language and other Indigenous languages. Over the last decade, he has been facilitating truth, healing, and forgiveness across historical divides.

Hilary Giovale is a mother, writer, and community organizer who lives in Flagstaff, Arizona. A ninth-generation American settler, she is descended from Celtic, Germanic, Nordic, and Indigenous peoples of Ancient Europe. An active reparationist, her work is guided by intuition, love, and relationships. Hilary seeks to follow Indigenous and Black leadership in support of human rights, environmental justice, and equitable futures. She is the author of Becoming a Good Relative: Calling White Settlers Toward Truth, Healing, and Repair (Green Writers Press, April 2024). Since 2019, Basil and Hilary have been collaborating on healing work, focused on repairing the harm that has been wrought by the Doctrine of Discovery.

You can read more about their relationship in this two-part interview. Learn more about Hilary’s work at goodrelative.com.

Please consider signing the "I Support the Sacred" petition to show your support for Apache Stronghold's legal case to protect Oak Flat. Resolution Copper, a subsidiary of British and Australian mining giants Rio Tinto and BHP, proposes to completely destroy this sacred site and contaminate the surrounding land, water and air. Preserving the religious liberty of Apache peoples is essential to preserving our own. We must all join together to protect sacred land from the forces of destruction.

Sarah and Sheri wrote a book together! Find out more about So We and Our Children May Live: Following Jesus in Confronting the Climate Crisis here. We are also publishing a Substack with the same title based on the theme found in our book — ecological justice, decolonization, faith, and where we find hope for our future. We’re excited about this Substack because it’s a more personal, unfiltered space in which we can share our thoughts and writings.

You can follow the Coalition to Dismantle the Doctrine of Discovery on Instagram (@coalitiontodismantle) and Facebook.

Episode 27: Interview with Kaitlin Curtice

December 15th, 2023  |  Season 3  |  42 mins 47 secs

In this episode, we talk with Kaitlin Curtice, author, poet, storyteller, public speaker and an enrolled citizen of the Potawatomi nation. Her most recent book is Living Resistance: An Indigenous Vision for Seeking Wholeness Every Day. She also authored the 2020 award-winning book Native: Identity, Belonging and Rediscovering God. Katilin also has a children’s book coming out this fall called Winter’s Gifts: An Indigenous Celebration of Nature – just in time for the holidays!

Sarah and Sheri wrote a book together! Find out more about So We and Our Children May Live: Following Jesus in Confronting the Climate Crisis here.

You can follow the Coalition to Dismantle the Doctrine of Discovery on Instagram (@coalitiontodismantle) and Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/dismantlediscovery)

Episode 26: Sarah and Sheri Talk about their New Book

December 1st, 2023  |  Season 3  |  28 mins 42 secs

In this episode, Sarah and Sheri reflect on the Richard Heinberg interview as it relates to the message of their new book So That We and Our Children May Live: Following Jesus in Confronting the Climate Crisis. We discuss why we are hopeful despite the polycrisis described in both our new book and in the interview with Richard. We also talk about why conspiracy theories like QAnon are onto something true and why it is important to be in kinship and solidarity with the working-class and poor people who believe these theories.

Note: At the beginning of this episode, we refer to a segment of the interview with Richard that wasn’t included in the previous episode. It’s a segment where he talks about the work of complexity scientist Peter Turchin. If you want to listen to that 7-minute segment – shameless plug alert! – you can do so by subscribing to Sarah’s and my new Substack, where you will get a quite personal weekly reflection on ecological justice, decolonization, faith, and hope for our future. We’ll begin posting Nov. 30.

We refer to this podcast episode, “Insects – A Silent Extinction” on Nate Hagens’ “The Great Simplification.”

You can follow the Coalition to Dismantle the Doctrine of Discovery on Instagram (@coalitiontodismantle) and Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/dismantlediscovery)

Episode 25: Interview with Richard Heinberg

November 17th, 2023  |  Season 3  |  46 mins 39 secs

In this episode, we talk with Richard Heinberg, one of the world’s foremost advocates for a shift away from our reliance on fossil fuels. He is the author of fourteen books, including some of the major works on society’s current energy and environmental sustainability crisis. His latest book is Power: Limits and Prospects for Human Survival (New Society, 2021). He is also Senior Fellow of the Post Carbon Institute, which is one of the main places Sheri goes to for information and analysis related to the polycrisis in which we find ourselves. Sheri relied on Richard’s work and that of the Post Carbon Institute when writing her and Sarah’s book, which is coming out later this month – So That We and Our Children May Live: Following Jesus in Confronting the Climate Crisis (Herald Press). We’re delighted that Richard wrote an endorsement for our book!

You can find all of the articles Richard mentioned in this podcast, and more, at his website.

Also check out the Post Carbon Institute’s resilience.org, which offers complex and clear systemic analysis on ecology, the environment, the equity crisis, energy and politics.

You can follow the Coalition to Dismantle the Doctrine of Discovery on Instagram (@coalitiontodismantle) and Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/dismantlediscovery)

Episode 24: Interview with Dwight Metzger

October 27th, 2023  |  Season 3  |  44 mins 10 secs

In anticipation of the Day of Prayer for Oak Flat on Nov. 4, we talk to Dwight Metzger, who has struggled with Apache Stronghold for decades to protect their sacred ancestral lands from destruction by a copper mine. In this interview, Dwight talks about the importance of the sacred sites of Oak Flat and Mount Graham for the San Carlos Apache and how he has been converted from the worldview of Western corporate environmentalism to one that follows the leadership of Indigenous people.

For more information about the Nov. 4, 2023, Day of Prayer, please go here.

Other websites:
Dwight’s union print shop, The Gloo Factory
To learn more about Oak Flat and Mount Graham, go to the Apache Stronghold website

Sarah and Sheri wrote a book together! Find out more about So We and Our Children May Live: Following Jesus in Confronting the Climate Crisis here.

You can follow the Coalition to Dismantle the Doctrine of Discovery on Instagram (@coalitiontodismantle) and Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/dismantlediscovery)

Episode 23: Interview with Patty Krawec

October 13th, 2023  |  Season 3  |  56 mins 41 secs

We’re back after taking a break to write a book! (See below.) The first podcast of our new season features Patty Krawec, an Anishinaabe and Ukranian writer from Lac Seul First Nation. She is the author of the compelling book, Becoming Kin: An Indigenous Call to Unforgetting the Past and Reimagining our Future, released in 2022. She is also the cohost of the Medicine for the Resistance podcast and the cofounder of the Nii’kinaaganaa Foundation. We’re also honored that Patty wrote a beautiful forward for our book, which is being published this month.

Our book: So That We and Our Children May Live: Following Jesus in Confronting the Climate Crisis (Herald Press)

Patty’s website and Substack

You can follow the Coalition to Dismantle the Doctrine of Discovery on Instagram (@coalitiontodismantle) and Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/dismantlediscovery)