The Dismantling the Doctrine of Discovery Podcast

Episode Archive

Episode Archive

31 episodes of The Dismantling the Doctrine of Discovery Podcast since the first episode, which aired on June 1st, 2021.

  • Episode 31: Ask an Indian: Part 2

    May 7th, 2024  |  Season 3  |  48 mins 7 secs

    Sarah and guest “answerers” Mark Charles and Phil Fox continue the conversation from the last episode. Questions include:

    Settlers are often told to seek relationship with local Native people. But what if Native folks don’t seem to want this? What does it really mean to build right relationship with Native people?
    I have grown up and lived most of my life with an understanding of human progress, that each successive generation lived better than the generation prior. Our medical treatments improve; our scientific knowledge advances; our technology gets better and better. For a variety of reasons, I am now questioning this view. Please comment on the idea of human progress. In particular, please share your thoughts on the idea of human progress in the area of morality. Dr. King famously said “The arc of the moral universe is long, but leans towards justice.“ But as I learn more about Indigenous societies, I am no longer confident that our modern society is more just than certain societies many centuries ago.
    Mark also returns to the first question asked in our last podcast episode: How can you practice Christianity and your own Indigenous spirituality at the same time? Can you be true to yourself and your Indigenous identity and be a Christian at the same time?

    Please consider signing the "I Support the Sacred" petition to show your support for Apache Stronghold's legal case to protect Oak Flat. Resolution Copper, a subsidiary of British and Australian mining giants Rio Tinto and BHP, proposes to completely destroy this sacred site and contaminate the surrounding land, water and air. Preserving the religious liberty of Apache peoples is essential to preserving our own. We must all join together to protect sacred land from the forces of destruction.

    Sarah and Sheri wrote a book together! Find out more about So We and Our Children May Live: Following Jesus in Confronting the Climate Crisis here. We are also publishing a Substack with the same title based on the theme found in our book — ecological justice, decolonization, faith, and where we find hope for our future. We’re excited about this Substack because it’s a more personal, unfiltered space in which we can share our thoughts and writings. Please contact Sheri at [email protected] if you can’t afford the price and would like a complimentary subscription.

    You can follow the Coalition to Dismantle the Doctrine of Discovery on Instagram (@coalitiontodismantle) and Facebook.

  • Episode 30: Ask an Indian Part 1

    April 26th, 2024  |  Season 3  |  45 mins 4 secs

    In this recurring episode, Sarah answers questions from listeners. This time, she is joined by Native friends Mark Charles and Phil Fox. Questions include:
    How can you practice Christianity and your own Indigenous spirituality at the same time? Can you be true to yourself and your Indigenous identity and be a Christian at the same time?
    The Bible is pretty clear that men shouldn’t have long hair. What do you think about having long hair? (This was actually a topic at the church in which Sarah grew up.)
    As a member of a church that is trying to be more than superficial about acknowledging that we occupy land that was illegitimately taken from natives, how can we respond in an honest way?

    We want your questions, especially those you might feel too embarrassed to ask “out loud.” Please submit any questions to Sheri at [email protected]. You can even do so anonymously, if you wish.
    Please consider signing the "I Support the Sacred" petition to show your support for Apache Stronghold's legal case to protect Oak Flat. Resolution Copper, a subsidiary of British and Australian mining giants Rio Tinto and BHP, proposes to completely destroy this sacred site and contaminate the surrounding land, water and air. Preserving the religious liberty of Apache peoples is essential to preserving our own. We must all join together to protect sacred land from the forces of destruction.

    Sarah and Sheri wrote a book together! Find out more about So We and Our Children May Live: Following Jesus in Confronting the Climate Crisis here. We are also publishing a Substack with the same title based on the theme found in our book — ecological justice, decolonization, faith, and where we find hope for our future. We’re excited about this Substack because it’s a more personal, unfiltered space in which we can share our thoughts and writings. Please contact Sheri at [email protected] if you can’t afford the price and would like a complimentary subscription.

    You can follow the Coalition to Dismantle the Doctrine of Discovery on Instagram (@coalitiontodismantle) and Facebook.

  • Episode 29: Interview with Patrick Bell

    March 19th, 2024  |  Season 3  |  1 hr 1 min

    In this episode, we talk to Patrick Bell, Bishop of the Episcopal Diocese of Eastern Oregon. His Diocese, which is a member of the Coalition’s Repair Network, has gone above and beyond in repudiating the Doctrine of Discovery. They started, first, with land rematriartion and then later came up with a repudiation statement. Patrick talks about how this “action-first” repudiation happened, what motivates him in this work, and why guilt isn’t an effective motivator for white people. Patrick was also willing to share vulnerably about being the father of Indigenous children in this interview – which opened up a space for all three of us to share intimately. In the end, we know only by changing systems of oppression may we create the conditions for all children to thrive.

    The lament used at the Episcopal Diocese’s meeting can be found here.

    Please consider signing the "I Support the Sacred" petition to show your support for Apache Stronghold's legal case to protect Oak Flat. Resolution Copper, a subsidiary of British and Australian mining giants Rio Tinto and BHP, proposes to completely destroy this sacred site and contaminate the surrounding land, water and air. Preserving the religious liberty of Apache peoples is essential to preserving our own. We must all join together to protect sacred land from the forces of destruction.

    Sarah and Sheri wrote a book together! Find out more about So We and Our Children May Live: Following Jesus in Confronting the Climate Crisis here. We are also publishing a Substack with the same title based on the theme found in our book — ecological justice, decolonization, faith, and where we find hope for our future. We’re excited about this Substack because it’s a more personal, unfiltered space in which we can share our thoughts and writings.

    You can follow the Coalition to Dismantle the Doctrine of Discovery on Instagram (@coalitiontodismantle) and Facebook.

  • Episode 28: Interview with Basil Brave Heart and Hilary Giovale

    January 19th, 2024  |  Season 3  |  1 hr 10 mins

    In this episode, we talk to Basil Brave Heart and Hilary Giovale. This was an amazing conversation about forgiveness – forgiving our oppressors, how true healing and repair happen given the reality of historical harms, how white settlers need to forgive themselves as part of the work of reparation. Basil also shares deeply from his tradition in ways that Sarah and Sheri found very moving.

    Basil Brave Heart is an Oglala Lakota Elder who lives in Pine Ridge, South Dakota. He is a Catholic boarding school survivor, retired school administrator, addiction counselor, and Korean War combat veteran who served as a paratrooper in the 1950s. As a young child in the 1930s, Basil’s Grandma Lucy told him about the 1890 Wounded Knee massacre. She counseled him to forgive the soldiers who perpetrated the massacre. A dream of his Grandma later guided Basil to change the name of a peak in the Black Hills. In 2016, it was renamed “Black Elk Peak” at the federal level. Basil studies how quantum physics corroborates the wisdom woven throughout the Lakota language and other Indigenous languages. Over the last decade, he has been facilitating truth, healing, and forgiveness across historical divides.

    Hilary Giovale is a mother, writer, and community organizer who lives in Flagstaff, Arizona. A ninth-generation American settler, she is descended from Celtic, Germanic, Nordic, and Indigenous peoples of Ancient Europe. An active reparationist, her work is guided by intuition, love, and relationships. Hilary seeks to follow Indigenous and Black leadership in support of human rights, environmental justice, and equitable futures. She is the author of Becoming a Good Relative: Calling White Settlers Toward Truth, Healing, and Repair (Green Writers Press, April 2024). Since 2019, Basil and Hilary have been collaborating on healing work, focused on repairing the harm that has been wrought by the Doctrine of Discovery.

    You can read more about their relationship in this two-part interview. Learn more about Hilary’s work at goodrelative.com.

    Please consider signing the "I Support the Sacred" petition to show your support for Apache Stronghold's legal case to protect Oak Flat. Resolution Copper, a subsidiary of British and Australian mining giants Rio Tinto and BHP, proposes to completely destroy this sacred site and contaminate the surrounding land, water and air. Preserving the religious liberty of Apache peoples is essential to preserving our own. We must all join together to protect sacred land from the forces of destruction.

    Sarah and Sheri wrote a book together! Find out more about So We and Our Children May Live: Following Jesus in Confronting the Climate Crisis here. We are also publishing a Substack with the same title based on the theme found in our book — ecological justice, decolonization, faith, and where we find hope for our future. We’re excited about this Substack because it’s a more personal, unfiltered space in which we can share our thoughts and writings.

    You can follow the Coalition to Dismantle the Doctrine of Discovery on Instagram (@coalitiontodismantle) and Facebook.

  • Episode 27: Interview with Kaitlin Curtice

    December 15th, 2023  |  Season 3  |  42 mins 47 secs

    In this episode, we talk with Kaitlin Curtice, author, poet, storyteller, public speaker and an enrolled citizen of the Potawatomi nation. Her most recent book is Living Resistance: An Indigenous Vision for Seeking Wholeness Every Day. She also authored the 2020 award-winning book Native: Identity, Belonging and Rediscovering God. Katilin also has a children’s book coming out this fall called Winter’s Gifts: An Indigenous Celebration of Nature – just in time for the holidays!

    Sarah and Sheri wrote a book together! Find out more about So We and Our Children May Live: Following Jesus in Confronting the Climate Crisis here.

    You can follow the Coalition to Dismantle the Doctrine of Discovery on Instagram (@coalitiontodismantle) and Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/dismantlediscovery)

  • Episode 26: Sarah and Sheri Talk about their New Book

    December 1st, 2023  |  Season 3  |  28 mins 42 secs

    In this episode, Sarah and Sheri reflect on the Richard Heinberg interview as it relates to the message of their new book So That We and Our Children May Live: Following Jesus in Confronting the Climate Crisis. We discuss why we are hopeful despite the polycrisis described in both our new book and in the interview with Richard. We also talk about why conspiracy theories like QAnon are onto something true and why it is important to be in kinship and solidarity with the working-class and poor people who believe these theories.

    Note: At the beginning of this episode, we refer to a segment of the interview with Richard that wasn’t included in the previous episode. It’s a segment where he talks about the work of complexity scientist Peter Turchin. If you want to listen to that 7-minute segment – shameless plug alert! – you can do so by subscribing to Sarah’s and my new Substack, where you will get a quite personal weekly reflection on ecological justice, decolonization, faith, and hope for our future. We’ll begin posting Nov. 30.

    We refer to this podcast episode, “Insects – A Silent Extinction” on Nate Hagens’ “The Great Simplification.”

    You can follow the Coalition to Dismantle the Doctrine of Discovery on Instagram (@coalitiontodismantle) and Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/dismantlediscovery)

  • Episode 25: Interview with Richard Heinberg

    November 17th, 2023  |  Season 3  |  46 mins 39 secs

    In this episode, we talk with Richard Heinberg, one of the world’s foremost advocates for a shift away from our reliance on fossil fuels. He is the author of fourteen books, including some of the major works on society’s current energy and environmental sustainability crisis. His latest book is Power: Limits and Prospects for Human Survival (New Society, 2021). He is also Senior Fellow of the Post Carbon Institute, which is one of the main places Sheri goes to for information and analysis related to the polycrisis in which we find ourselves. Sheri relied on Richard’s work and that of the Post Carbon Institute when writing her and Sarah’s book, which is coming out later this month – So That We and Our Children May Live: Following Jesus in Confronting the Climate Crisis (Herald Press). We’re delighted that Richard wrote an endorsement for our book!

    You can find all of the articles Richard mentioned in this podcast, and more, at his website.

    Also check out the Post Carbon Institute’s resilience.org, which offers complex and clear systemic analysis on ecology, the environment, the equity crisis, energy and politics.

    You can follow the Coalition to Dismantle the Doctrine of Discovery on Instagram (@coalitiontodismantle) and Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/dismantlediscovery)

  • Episode 24: Interview with Dwight Metzger

    October 27th, 2023  |  Season 3  |  44 mins 10 secs

    In anticipation of the Day of Prayer for Oak Flat on Nov. 4, we talk to Dwight Metzger, who has struggled with Apache Stronghold for decades to protect their sacred ancestral lands from destruction by a copper mine. In this interview, Dwight talks about the importance of the sacred sites of Oak Flat and Mount Graham for the San Carlos Apache and how he has been converted from the worldview of Western corporate environmentalism to one that follows the leadership of Indigenous people.

    For more information about the Nov. 4, 2023, Day of Prayer, please go here.

    Other websites:
    Dwight’s union print shop, The Gloo Factory
    To learn more about Oak Flat and Mount Graham, go to the Apache Stronghold website

    Sarah and Sheri wrote a book together! Find out more about So We and Our Children May Live: Following Jesus in Confronting the Climate Crisis here.

    You can follow the Coalition to Dismantle the Doctrine of Discovery on Instagram (@coalitiontodismantle) and Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/dismantlediscovery)

  • Episode 23: Interview with Patty Krawec

    October 13th, 2023  |  Season 3  |  56 mins 41 secs

    We’re back after taking a break to write a book! (See below.) The first podcast of our new season features Patty Krawec, an Anishinaabe and Ukranian writer from Lac Seul First Nation. She is the author of the compelling book, Becoming Kin: An Indigenous Call to Unforgetting the Past and Reimagining our Future, released in 2022. She is also the cohost of the Medicine for the Resistance podcast and the cofounder of the Nii’kinaaganaa Foundation. We’re also honored that Patty wrote a beautiful forward for our book, which is being published this month.

    Our book: So That We and Our Children May Live: Following Jesus in Confronting the Climate Crisis (Herald Press)

    Patty’s website and Substack

    You can follow the Coalition to Dismantle the Doctrine of Discovery on Instagram (@coalitiontodismantle) and Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/dismantlediscovery)

  • Episode 22: A Foster Mom Speaks Out about ICWA

    September 6th, 2022  |  Season 2  |  40 mins 10 secs

    In episode #7, we discussed the Indian Child Welfare Acts or ICWA, which is a major piece of civil rights legislation for Native Americans that has come under threat in the courts. This important law, passed in 1978, strengthened the legal rights of Indigenous families and specified that when Native children are removed from the care of their families, they will be placed in the care of extended family members, families in their own tribe, or Indigenous families from another tribe. On Nov. 9, 2022, the U.S. Supreme Court will hear a case that challenges the constitutionality of ICWA. In this episode, we will hear about the importance of ICWA by talking to a mother from the dominant culture who fostered a Native child.

    For more information:
    The National Indian Child Welfare Association website.
    Chapter one of Sarah Augustine’s book, The Land is Not Empty: Following Jesus in Dismantling the Doctrine of Discovery.
    Dismantling the Doctrine of Discovery Coalition website.

  • Episode 21: Ask an Indian - Part 2

    July 19th, 2022  |  Season 2  |  39 mins 40 secs

    In round two of this episode, Sarah answers more listener questions, including:
    I was in a meeting where someone used the phrase “off the rez,” and I noticed that you (Sarah) as the only Native person in the meeting were actually less offended by this phrase than other folks were. Can you say more about your response?
    How do white people know which "side" to take when Indigenous communities are divided around an issue? For example, some tribes, or people within them, are supportive of a tribe seeking federal recognition and some are not. Or some are supportive of a development project, but others are not.

    When Indigenous peoples want land return, does that mean they want to kick me out of my house? Do they want me to leave the country or something?

    We want your questions, especially those you might feel too embarrassed to ask “out loud.” Please submit any questions to Sheri at [email protected]. You can even do so anonymously, if you wish. And, for more information on donating land to local Native tribes or proceeds from a land sale to Indigenous justice organizations, please contact John Stoesz at [email protected] and check out this video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwkW5AZgddc) for his story of land return.

  • Episode 20: Ask an Indian - Part 1

    June 27th, 2022  |  Season 2  |  36 mins 53 secs

    In this recurring episode, Sarah answers questions from listeners. Questions include:
    What is the deal about dressing up like and Indian? Why is that offensive?
    What do Native people think about Columbus Day, Thanksgiving Day, etc.?
    Many white settlers look to Indigenous People for ideas about how to connect with the land and live more sustainably. But Indigenous people have been so assimilated – what wisdom do they actually have to offer the larger culture?

    We want your questions, especially those you might feel too embarrassed to ask “out loud.” Please submit any questions to Sheri at [email protected]. You can even do so anonymously, if you wish.

  • Episode 19: Vision

    June 6th, 2022  |  Season 2  |  41 mins 54 secs

    In this episode, Sarah and Sheri talk about Sarah’s “100-year vision” for the Dismantling the Doctrine of Discovery Coalition. Sarah will begin as the full-time Executive Director of the Coalition on July 1.

    To contribute to Sarah’s salary campaign, please go here (https://dofdmenno.org/salary-campaign/). Every dollar you donate will be matched by Sheri’s congregation, First Mennonite Church of San Francisco, through Indigenous Peoples Day of this year (October 10).

  • Episode 18: Conservation and Decolonization

    May 23rd, 2022  |  Season 2  |  41 mins 18 secs

    It’s almost summer and many of us will be traveling to the U.S.’s national parks for vacation and recreation. In this episode, Sarah and Sheri talk about how the formation of our national parks, the conservation movement that inspired their formation, and colonization have gone hand in hand. They also talk about how conservation could be decolonized.

    For more information:
    Link to The Atlantic article, “Return the National Parks to the Tribes” by David Treuer
    Statistics from Cultural Survival can be found here.

  • Episode 17: Redistricting and the Doctrine of Discovery

    May 9th, 2022  |  Season 2  |  48 mins 41 secs

    In this episode, Sarah and Sheri talk about Sarah’s experience of serving as chair of the Washington State Redistricting Commission and the impact of that redistricting process on Native people.

  • Episode 16: Beyond Electric Cars and Renewable Energy

    April 25th, 2022  |  Season 2  |  43 mins 12 secs

    In this episode, Sarah and Sheri talk about why renewable energy and electric cars and green growth won’t save us – and how these things are linked to the same extractive, dominating worldview of the Doctrine of Discovery.